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active draft #tbc

“a discussion on introspection with nate, following reference to a quote from the book Wetware, by Dennis Bray, comparing introspection with early biological discoveries using a microscope”

  • [[#1. Introduction]]
  • [[#2. Nate]]
  • [[#3. Themanual4am]]
  • [[#4. Nate]]
  • [[#5. Themanual4am]]
    • [[#system signal distinction (consciousness and contents)]]
    • [[#the lens]]
    • [[#aligning by the common frame]]

1. introduction

taken from from the book Wetware, by Dennis Bray

name

I imagine many active scientists have something of a (gender neutral) “nostalgic science boner” for this period of time and discovery.

Consider the cost of “psychology’s stance on introspection”:

Armed with nothing more than the lens of introspection and metacognition, and their own keen perception and intelligence, each psychologist was able to extract essential features of “the mechanics of cognition between the brain and behaviour”, and to draw rational conclusions about them

2. nate

"Hurry for gender-neutral science boners. ;)"

I’m not sure what you mean by “psychology’s stance on introspection”, but it certainly is interesting to compare your statement to the paragraph about cells.

One big problem with introspection is that you can only apply it to a single, human mind. Those folks studying microbes in pond water had an incredible variety of examples! They could make statements about single-celled life generally because they could see patterns across species.

When it comes to minds, we’re at a huge disadvantage. It’d be great if we could start by studying simpler examples, but we can’t. The best we can do is study brains and behaviour, which just isn’t the same.

3. themanual4am

link

This is a great opportunity for some daylight on the case for introspection, please pushback as much as necessary.

Perhaps first, let’s make sure I’m talking to the right points!

  1. Why is the big problem ‘so’?
  2. Are you experienced with any meditation practices? Eg can you easily (enough) shift to zen, etc? (To be clear, i’m interested in the territory, not the maps or terms per se, though most structured methods are sound)

“I suggest that we can study a simpler mind (than commonly experienced), by establishing a baseline (of zero interpretation), and incrementally isolating and mapping all context and content phenomena separately”

4. nate

  1. link

It’s problematic that a person can only introspect their own mind because it limits their perspective. They cannot experience first hand what it is to have another mind. They especially cannot imagine a mind of a non-human shape. This means we can’t use introspection to do what those early cell biologists did: compare many diverse examples to find common themes and variations. We don’t know in which ways our own minds are “typical,” or what the range of mental experiences is.

Your point about observing a simpler mind is an interesting one. You’re suggesting that we simplify our own minds, observing simplified activity, or a subset of activity. That is a powerful tool, but it’s not the same as, for instance, observing what it’s like to have the mind of a bat. Or a nematode. :)

  1. link

I practice yoga, and I do use it to clear my mind and to observe the mind’s activity. I’ll admit my moments of true mental clarity and stillness are rare and fleeting. But I know what that is like, and have experienced it many times.

I’ve also had a couple brief mystical experiences, for whatever that’s worth.

5. themanual4am

“the discussion”

Excellent points, which I feel are (mostly) representative of the position I have been preparing to argue against (with the exception of your brief mystical experiences, which i’ll put to one side for the moment, though am keen to learn more about!)

"—where are you heading with this?"

system signal distinction (consciousness and contents)

“establishing a common frame of reference”

To simplify observation and reasoning about cognition and phenomenological experience, i’m going to build towards several distinctions, with the most important being the system signal distinction.

This one comes from Sam Harris – specifically his online App based Vipassana practice – Waking up – which frames “consciousness is distinct from its contents”. By following Sam’s course and methodology, any person 1 is able to experience a calm and peaceful state of being absent of interpretation or emotion, known as jhana, or zen, etc. With few unsentimental refinements and adjustments 2, this state of being is an essential first step toward grounding discussion of introspective observation by a common reference frame, regardless of observer, or personal or external circumstances 3.

“the common frame is analogous to agreeing upon a specific uncluttered origin for exploration, or a blank page from which to begin any sketch”

“or, because this discussion will refer to scientific lensed observations (of microscope and telescope) – relative to lensed observation, this common reference frame is a means to calibrate introspective observation, by simplified microscope sample, or perhaps ‘standard candle’”

introspection as lens

Introspection (i’ll include metacognition for simplicity), is like a lens, which must be developed and refined over time – this metaphor works because initially our lens of introspection is poorly developed, and unrefined: we struggle to distinguish observables, as we might with an early prototype telescope lens, one which provides only blurry suggestions or glimpses of “what lies beyond”

introspection as physical training

A useful secondary metaphor is physical strength.

It is easy to underappreciate weight, and overestimate strength or rate of physical development. Development and refinement of physical strength takes time, because changes are physical – we are waiting for our bodies to physically change, which is limited by physical resources (logistics and and construction, etc)

“additionally, we might also fail to appreciate secondary benefits of physical strength, etc” #tbc

“our bodies do not change too easily, lest our state of being (and ongoing resource demands) fluctuate too wildly, which affects survival strategies, and sense making”

introspection summary

The important points, are:

  1. Introspection (and metacognition) must be developed and refined
  2. While default level of development or refinement my vary, it is not possible to skip the progression anymore than one might in a gym
  3. Refined introspection brings not just clarity, but discernment, of primitives and contextual alignment

“ah, that one blob is actually more than one thing, and now that i can discern each separately, as a & b, i see that a also appears under other circumstances, some of which i can invoke in isolation”

aligning by the common frame

“meditation, yoga, and others”

I note that your frame of reference is yoga.

Great. There is much overlap between meditation and yoga – the same embodied mind of course – but there are significant differences which I suggest explain a few of your comments.

Where yoga develops physical range of motion, meditation develops cognitive range of motion – despite overlap, yoga no more takes you through the same cognitive range of motion than meditation does physical.

“an important point – for introspection, a glimpse is a waypoint, not the destination”

Differences (between yoga and meditation) will be described in detail, but for the time being consider that for many, the objective (which one cannot think of as an objective) of meditation, is zen (by whatever name), which in simple terms, is achieved only when we have learned to consciously direct and effect (for sufficient time) cessation of interpretation. When doing so successfully, our system will incrementally shut-down spatial sensory processing (observable, testable), for as long as our attentions are not directed to our physical circumstances. Scopes of operation include all those which we can become conscious of, but obvious shifts include auditory and visual flattening, and loss of body plan. While any phenomena is new or novel or a surprise, it will catch our attention, such that we notice it and begin to interpret it. The act of interpretation prohibits, or ends, the state. The only way to progress, is incremental desensitisation to all waypoints and circumstances ‘along the way’ (well, common ones are sufficient, circumstantially)

For yoga, this is not possible while focussing on muscles, or posture, though may be experienced in moments between, at absolute contented rest – but I suggest, that if any practitioner is reaching this state in those moments, they ought also be able to reach those states directly, without distractions of yoga, and therefore for the purposes of formal exploration of cognitive landscape, more rapidly establish the common baseline between yoga and meditation.

notes #tbc

Notes on zen (or equivalent):

  1. Zen is easily achievable by following a simple method, though while the method is simple, following it, is not
  2. In simple terms
    1. We must learn to consciously invoke a cessation of interpretation
    2. Which follows cessation-of and desensitisation-to sensory spatial processing
  3. Zen is often characterised by a state of buzzy bliss, but this too is a distraction
    1. The buzz of zen is not a permanent fixture, and fades over time acute and habitual (and is in fact relative to prior body state, such that, as regular practice becomes integrated into life, body state is maintained at more optimal levels, buzzy bliss becomes deep contented okayness ) the buzz, is out experience of a specific gradient decline
  4. The real baseline im pointing toward
    1. Conceptual, environmental, embodied interpretation-less existence
    2. The void (eyes closed)
      1. The feed (with experience, eyes open)
    3. Not higher states of consciousness, but lower, simpler
  6. In fact, this baseline, is more like basecamp
    1. And once established, forms the common reference for all observation of incremental delta
    2. Can explain in more detail, buy describing the entire process in more detail

Consider the circumstances described above.

  1. Volitional control over sensory spatial processing
  2. Direct experience of zero body plan
  3. Interpretation-less experience
  4. Baseline, basecamp

Whoever you are, whatever your circumstances, are not present here. Whatever intricate details occupy and define your life, do not exist in these moments.

Leaping ahead of the detailed assessment, and first-principles reconstruction, which directly aligns this state with low-power operation, offline edit and maintenance of interpretive contexts, and periods of sleep, I assert that this common baseline, or basecamp, is the general case of all biological cognition.

Following, I suggest that – whatever it is to be a bat, includes the same operational cognitive mechanics, necessarily. This common reference frame, between yoga and meditation, and all humans, however different their lives (caveats), is common across all species of a particular, specific architecture of cognition. Whatever it is to be a bat, in those moments,

Following, just as baseline is the common frame for all (applicable) cognition, the spectrum of buzzy bliss to deep contented okayness, is in effect, the common sensation.

building up from the common frame

#tbc

  1. Caveats, in the same way any person is able to develop physical strength, or learn new skills. ↩︎

  2. Including very specific conditions of character. ↩︎

  3. Caveats include special cases which are a distraction here. ↩︎